Ep12 The Case for Sales Coaching & The Hubble Telescope

Welcome to the Inside Sales Enablement Podcast, Episode 12

Sales Coaching — the definition matters. Especially with regard to enablement and Sales Management

There is A LOT of noise in the market today about “sales coaching” 

The question is, does it help sales managers become force multipliers, or is it a source of conflict? 

In the episode, the guys use a role-play (Scott based on feedback he’s heard from many different sales enablement leaders and Brain-based on research he’s currently doing on front-line sales managers).  

Join us at https://www.OrchestrateSales.com/podcast/ to collaborate with peers, join Insider Nation, participate in the conversation and be part of the continued elevation of the profession.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Nick Merinkers 00:02

Welcome to the inside sales enablement podcast. Where has the profession been? Where is it now? And where is it heading? What does it mean to you, your company, other functions? The market? Find out here. Join the founding father of the sales enablement profession Scott Santucci and Trailblazer Brian Lambert as they take you behind the scenes of the birth of an industry, the inside sales enablement podcast starts now.

Scott Santucci 00:34

Hi, this is Scott Santucci.

Brian Lambert 00:35

And I’m Brian Lambert and we are the sales enablement insiders. Our podcast is dedicated to helping leaders understand the big questions they should consider to be successful in sales enablement. On this podcast, we like to reframe, revisit, rethink and tackle reality in the sales enablement role. Scott, why don’t you frame it out for us today.

Scott Santucci 00:57

Sure thing, Brian. And thank you very much for everybody listening, that’s a great introduction, Brian. One of the things that we’re going to be talking about here today is the fuzzy world, the gray area of sales coaching, and the difference between frontline sales managers and sales enablement and to give that some color, the the way that we’re going to frame it out is I’m tell a little bit of story about the Hubble Space Telescope. And if you are a science nerd like myself, you’re appreciating the wonderful images that we have shoot, they even took a photo a couple months ago of actual real life black hole. It’s amazing. It’s absolutely amazing. But the story that of starting out wasn’t so great. When the Hubble Space Telescope was first released and brought out of the space shuttle had a problem. It actually couldn’t focus on, on anything really. And the problem that had is like most complex machinery, there were different teams. One team was focused on doing calculations using the metric system. Another team was focused on using the standard system. And you can think, oh, what a bunch of idiots. But I think no one in their right mind would call somebody who works at NASA literally a rocket scientist, stupid. The issue is when things get complicated, it’s very, very, very, very, very, very easy for people to lose sight of, of clarity, particularly lack of communications and the like. So that’s, that’s what we’re talking about. And, Brian, your thoughts?

Brian Lambert 02:41

Well, I would say we don’t have the standard coaching system and the metric coaching system or maybe we do but when you look at that, Scott, what’s what’s your point as it relates to sales coaching?

Scott Santucci 02:56

My point on that is very simple sales. People are smart. Sales Managers are smart, sales enablement. People are smart, and VPS of sales are smart. Let’s assume everybody in their roles are smart. It is very easy for us to sit there and call and think other people are not able to do one thing or the other. But maybe we have a bigger problem, which is a lack of clarity. And that’s really the keystone of this. So, what we’re going to do in this conversation is like most sales enablement, professionals, every single one of us has our own lens, our own perspective. So, what I’m going to do is I’m going to paint that a little bit. And we’re going to, we’re going to roleplay this out and say for the sales enablement people who are saying, hmm, I’ve read a lot about frontline sales coaching. It’s a great force multiplier for us to do. I’m going to provide coaching services coaching for our reps. And the reason that I’m going to do that is because we have to demonstrate value, right? I mean, let’s let’s let’s cut to the chase, we have a fuzzy role. Most of the organization doesn’t most of the rest of the organization doesn’t really understand what we do. But I have so much out of humanity communicated so much expertise and talent around sales, training and sales coaching, that I’m going to get in that game because I’m not seeing frontline sales managers.

Brian Lambert 04:32

So doesn’t know. I would say, don’t do that.

Scott Santucci 04:37

What How can I not do that? Brian, I’ve got all this talent. I’ve I’ve done all this training. Look at the feedback scores I get when I actually do courses, my feedback scores are through the roof. Why are you telling me not to do it?

Brian Lambert 04:49

So, I didn’t know you’re gonna go there. So, this is totally, you know, unscripted, but I would say I’m having a visceral reaction to you taking on the frontline manager role. So, in other words to be more clear, if you’re in a sales enablement function and you want to provide coaching services, you should be providing that to from my managers and helping them coach not doing their job for them. Because in today’s world, in my opinion, the role of a frontline manager is to drive productivity of their team. And that’s their job to coach their people, not yours.

Scott Santucci 05:22

Wait, what are you talking about? Brian? That sounds semantics coaching the frontline sales managers versus their people at the end of the day, the the salespeople aren’t able, without reinforcement of the training that we’ve provided on let’s say, we’re rolling out challenger. Companies made a huge investment in that we don’t have reinforcement in it. It’s gonna it’s it’s gonna die on the vine. I know it, you know it, no one’s really concentrating on reinforcement, so I need to do it.

Brian Lambert 05:54

So, I’m laughing because you must have been on the receiving end of a lot of this type of discussion because for people that know, Scott, there’s no way he would just say, he does what you just said. So, I’m glad. I’m glad you clarified this as roleplay. So, I’m a listener. Yeah. listener. So, um, but I would say, Okay, um, in that view, then what’s the purpose of the manager? Specifically, right? So, I framed about the admin side. And, you know, the role of a manager is just like any other frontline manager, the approving vacations, admin time, expenses, etc. On the productivity side, though, that’s the challenge, you know, because their sales managers, they’re responsible for, you know, pipeline forecasts, you know, closing deals, etc. And so, when you look at the role of the first line manager, there’s not a lot of clarity there. And I think there’s a lot of assumptions is what,

Scott Santucci 06:46

Well wait a second, Brian. I don’t need to read their job descriptions. I know that their number one job is to help drive performance to their reps, and they’re not providing performance coaching to their reps. I sit on all those the court the qbrs. I hear I hear it, they miss the qualifying opportunities left and right. They need help I need to provide a forum.

Brian Lambert 07:11

Well, have you asked them what help they need? To me unleashed

Scott Santucci 07:17

I’ve been doing this for 20 years. I don’t mean to ask to help. When I see when I see in a cube er, and I hear the conversations happening. And I see the holes in the in the pipeline. I gotta act. Yeah, we don’t have time.

Brian Lambert 07:31

Yeah, I would agree that you have to act. But one of the things that I would ask you to act on is understanding the role specifically, and, more importantly, driving that clarity across the organization. Because you’re making a lot of assumptions by acting to fill a gap that you may want, you may not need to to somebody else, maybe

Scott Santucci 07:52

I was a frontline sales manager before.

Brian Lambert 07:56

Well, that was before not not today where customers have evolved. Solutions are a lot more sophisticated. And quite frankly, the demands on a sales managers time are exponentially higher than when you did it before. And also, I believe that the role has as more from individual manager driving individual deals, to creating team outcomes with an entire team of people. And to think that you can waltz right in there and start telling people how to close more deals. Not only are you going to perhaps undermine the authority of the frontline manager, right, you’re also perhaps going to set back sales numbers, because you’re not involved in it every day. It’s a little naive to think you can walk into a sales process today and drive better results than somebody who’s involved with five eight people on a daily basis. I mean, what are you talking about? Why would you even want to do that? Doesn’t matter.

Scott Santucci 08:56

Wait a second. I’m the one who trained them all on our newest Sales methodology. So, I’m the I know everything there is to know about challenger, everything there is our reps aren’t following the methodology. And I am in a unique position because I trained everybody on this. I’m in a unique position. How do I What do you mean? I don’t know. I know because I know challenger.

Brian Lambert 09:22

Yeah. And you you can line up behind the 47 other people that know their widget that I want the sales manager to help roll it out from marketing from product from the CRM team, from the analytics team, from HR from talent acquisition, from product number 37. From the finance people to the operations, people that want to talk about quarterly read forecasts, etc. And to think that you know, you can come in as a sales training bias and say, you know, I taught your people I know better than than you do, on how to manage perhaps sales cycle, how to handle a sales call, how to prioritize time, and and coach people how to prioritize time, how to renegotiate the trade offs on a daily basis on on these demands is not right to me, I would say redirecting that energy to go do something into the, you know, broader team view or the system view is way more valuable. For example, you know, sales managers have the hardest job of anybody in the in the business world today, because of a lot of the pressures that they’re under, who’s helping simplify what’s coming at them. And then with regard to coaching, and talent in general, for example, I think he could spend a lot more time understanding what type of talent you know, sales managers need to get from the recruiting team, for example, there’s a lot of frustration there. You know, if you want to teach somebody challenge or go teach the talent acquisition folks, what salespeople are trying to do. You know, I think that would be a great use of your skills as a trainer. But to take over the sales managers job and coach their people on behalf of them is is to me insulting. I wouldn’t appreciate it if if my team

Scott Santucci 11:17

Okay, so we’re going to end roleplay So Brian, how’d I do?

Brian Lambert 11:22

Well, I’m pissed off right now. Yeah. So that was great. You know, I think

Scott Santucci 11:33

Why pissed off?

Brian Lambert 11:34

Well, it’s what is well, I have a visceral reaction because it’s real, right? I had a sales manager call me I think a week and a half ago going, Oh, I just unleashed, you know, a whole a whole tirade on my town acquisition team. And I told him, they were screwing up. He didn’t use that word. Because it was expletive laden. You know, my whole sales team because they need to get their stuff together. Right and you know, it’s frustrating to be a sales manager today. And nope, if you look at it the reason why I’m having a an emotive reaction to this kind of you should you as a manager should go do XYZ. I one was never asked by you, will it be helpful to when I started actually sharing what I believe should happen, you kept, you know, arguing with me. And that that I think is is frustrating for sales managers to be in that position.

Scott Santucci 12:33

And that was, that was that was pretty heightened. And, you know, the purpose of that is we hear a lot of these kinds of feedback. And the purpose of this show is or this particular episode is to understand the situation more holistically. So, taking a step back, let’s let’s break down this problem. The frontline, what actually is the role and responsibility of a frontline sales manager If you were to look at this like a Venn diagram, you have two Venn diagrams coming together, you have one, they are a cog, for lack of a better word in the sales machine. So, when you think about the sales leader working with human resources and finance, they have to put together a structure their department, and in that structure, their department, there’s a there’s a term called span of control. And they set a metric of how many reps report to whom. And it’s a very mechanical viewpoint and lost in that shuffle. The job description of a frontline sales manager gets overlooked. So, it is not uncommon for many variations of a frontline job description to exist inside a company and somehow that gets baked into somebody’s job performance and what that was, so that’s one side of it. The second side of it is I have not I have yet to meet and I’m going to ask you, Brian, a frontline sales manager that doesn’t feel a heck of a lot of responsibility. Heck, they’re paid their most of their salary is variable, and it’s based on their team’s performance. I have yet to meet a frontline sales manager that isn’t interested in helping their salespeople be better. Yeah, that’s right. Have you ever met a frontline sales manager that isn’t interested in that?

Brian Lambert 14:25

They wouldn’t be in the job.

Scott Santucci 14:27

Not for long, right. Right. So, the question that then is, you have two competing forces. You have one force, which says this job description what we’re asking of you as a frontline sales manager is unclear. And then secondly, you’ve learned how if you’re probably if you’re a frontline sales manager, you’re at least a year or two away removed from the field, maybe even longer. So, you probably don’t know everything that’s going on. In terms of techniques, the techniques that got you here to where you were may be different than the techniques that work today. And you probably aren’t as empathetic as you could be about the change that, you know, last year, two years ago, you’re asking your sellers to sell a whole bunch of volume to minion level buyers. Now you’re rolling out challenger or whatever, sales methodology. And now you want your sellers to go call sell commercial insights for God’s sakes to business executives.

Brian Lambert 15:33

Yeah and 12 to an 8.4 to 13.1 by buyers, right?

Scott Santucci 15:40

Yeah. So, it’s something has to give. And if we, if we in sales enablement want to partner and leverage and be a part of the frontline sales manager, we have to realize that they’re under so much pressure. They don’t have a lot of vocabulary like what you said before with that. They don’t have A lot of our vocabulary describe these things. And these are the these are some challenges. So, let’s get into some prescriptions now for what kind of sales enablement leader do to navigate? So do Brian, do you and I, what is it? What is our position on coaching as a thing, a business within business a service that sales enablement provides? What’s our position on that?

Brian Lambert 16:27

Well one, I would say do not provide that service to reps. If you’re going to provide coaching services provided to managers, and start with to your point, having clarity on the first line manager role, and ensuring if you do the interviews, do the needs analysis, whatever your name is for it, that there’s clarity across not only the sales management team, but the HR team as well. That that’ll be the first thing.

Scott Santucci 16:54

Yeah, so let me piggyback on that. So, I’m speaking to you directly as a listener. If You believe that your greatest contribution to your company is to provide frontline to provide coaching directly to reps. You are not a sales enablement professional. You are a sales coach. Call yourself a sales coach and be a sales coach and recognize that’s what you are. For the rest of us doing sales enablement, we’re doing broader things than that

Brian Lambert 17:27

Well, isn’t coaching underneath the enablement umbrella Scott? I’m gonna flip it back on you.

Scott Santucci 17:32

Well, sure. That’s what I’m saying. If that’s how you’re defining what you’re what you’re adding the most value in, then you’re not a force multiplier. Yeah, that multiplier would say, Okay. I’m so confident in my ability to coach individual reps. I’m going to teach frontline sales managers how to coach their reps. So, the service that I can get the best multiple out of my time is if I can get let’s say, we have 100 reps out of out of my time I can coach maybe 10-20 reps, you know, let’s say, or I can coach 20 sales managers who can coach their eight reps. Where am I going to have a greater return on my investment? I can build the same kind of similar kind of curriculum that I know how to do. And I can create a common language that currently doesn’t exist, just like we say, with sales. The benefit of a great sales methodology is that we have a common language amongst our sales force. We don’t have a common language across our sales managers. Without that common language, it’s going to be very difficult for me to get feedback on other programs that I could do.

Brian Lambert 18:43

Yeah, that’s a good point. I think less than 5% of organizations. I can’t remember who put that research out. But they said that less than 5% have actual standardized, if you will, sales methodology and even to me coaching methodology coaching, right? Yeah. And I would even say if you take sales coaching to some sort of one, one page picture, that would be helpful. What is sales coaching? Because it’s a conversation or is it a philosophy? Is it a task? Is it a process? Is it a methodology? What is it? And I think there’s just a lack of clarity, not only on the manager role, which we both talked about, but the second point I would make to be successful in enablement. Here is, is what is sales coaching? And how would you define it so that it can scale? If you’re not able to define it, so to speak, if you’re not able to give it an identity, delineate it from a methodology versus a philosophy? Because the first perspective, pushback you’re going to hear is from sales management, oh, I’m constantly coaching. It’s my philosophy. You know, so how would you handle that? And I think there’s some, some work to be done there, that you can drive a lot of leverage. So that My second point, Scott, is to define what you mean by sales coaching. What’s your reaction to that?

Scott Santucci 20:06

I think that’s I think that’s right. I think we have two similar problems. Sales 101. Right. So, this is this is what makes this whole sales enablement to think hard, especially for those of you who have sales background. It’s really hard to sell sales internally to salespeople. Hard, hard, hard, hard to do. Yeah. But ultimately, that’s what we’re what we’re talking about in sales. 101 is just because you see a problem doesn’t necessarily mean your clients supposed to see a problem. Right? I think solution selling calls it the latent pain to pain, I forget what other other groups call it. But one thing that I think is really important, is you’re going to need some sponsorship from your VP of sales. If you’re going to start doing things to quote them quote unquote offer coaching services, you’re going to need to have their support. The first way to do their support would be how do we illuminate what the problem is in the first place? One thing to do that you don’t capture a lot of visibility is do some analysis on the variation to job descriptions, and then prioritize, say, hey, look, here’s the job description, do some interviews of sales managers about what they’re actually doing. And then say, hey, look, these are the job. These are the job descriptions. Here’s what they’re actually doing. And then say, Mr. VP of sales of these five things, what would you say in order priority? I guarantee you, the VP of sales is going to say, well, coaching our reps is going to be high. It’s going to be, you know, definitely in the top two or three. The Karen feeding of the, you know, the spreadsheet management is not going to be high. But we’re going to find out the amount of time that our frontline sales managers spending doing all the spreadsheets and some administrative stuff is going to be astronomical. So, we first have to create the space, even if we do create a great program, we have to create the time space to allow a program to actually thrive. Yeah, giving that insight will give you permission from the VP of sales to say, go explore it, and now the VP of Sales has your back. And you can probably guarantee that you’re gonna get a lot of resistance from most of the frontline sales managers, you’re gonna have to find your next group of people to target.

Brian Lambert 22:32

Yeah, I mean, there’s kind of there’s you brought up three things. And in that one is the variability across job descriptions. definitely agree with that. The second is, you know, good old-fashioned time and motion study for anybody who’s got that kind of background, but like, what are managers actually spending time on? And then third is the prioritization piece, right. So that’s just three variables that are kind of hidden, and not really well understood or discussed. I totally agree with those. That’s great. Great point.

Scott Santucci 23:01

So now what we’ve done with this with these with these three points now we’ve created demand for our products and services. So instead of pushing a product and service and acting in desperation, hopefully we’ve got other things that we’re working on. Now, how would we design a coaching program? Like what what it would look like? How would I communicate this? Brian as a business within a business, what service Am I providing? Yeah, boom, and how would I measure my results?

Brian Lambert 23:32

Yeah, so the audience here, the customer would be sales managers. So, first line, the, the service you’re going to provide would be some sort of, you know, it’d be to look at it from two lenses, the mindset fill out philosophic, philosophical side of it, like, you know, what’s the purpose and the why, yeah, sales coaching, and then two would be some sort of method. And I would, I would keep it simple, um, you know, so doesn’t become yet another administrative compliance issue. Because really, to me, you have to teach and you want to teach sales managers how to drive team outcomes through, you know, real time constant communication, that that helps close, you know, the gap with their customers. And oh, by the way, that just happens to be called coaching. So, if you go at it from let’s teach them yet another model and another spreadsheet to go comply to, that you’re not going to get as much leverage as let’s talk about the team dynamic and what your team really needs from you. And for example, they might need, you know, more of a, you’ve got their back and even as you have their back more, they’re going to bring things to you that they’re having challenges with. If you are in your office all day long, and they bring you issues and you rip their head off, you know, they’re not going to come and tell you their challenges. So, I could teach you a coaching model all day long. You’re never going to be able to use it because you haven’t built an environment where people want to get coached, right? So, there’s a, there’s a lot to figure out there. But I agree that your services could be in that vein to create some sort of program to create the environment where coaching interactions, because that’s what we’re talking about the interaction between managers and reps across five to eight people, their span of control, to create the right type of team environment, or subculture that closes the gap to customer and I call that coaching.

Scott Santucci 25:25

So, let’s let’s break this down as a business within a business, right? So, we You and I both love this. Love this concept. I want to be in the coaching business, I have this expertise. people on my team have this expertise. I’m interested in differentiating my sales enablement department along the way along. So, I’m going to do what my company does. The first thing that I’m going to do is I’m going to do a market assessment, the do an impact assessment. What is that? What might the impact of better, more consistent, more standard coaching look like inside our organs? Do an analysis of the variable study at a time motion study and prioritization gap. It sounds like a lot of work, it’s you do need to do the work, but it doesn’t take a lot of time, which is take some discipline, have a read out shop that read out roleplay out that read out with a few sales managers beforehand to get the right language and communicate it to the head of sales that sales is gonna want is they’re gonna want everything at first because you’re going to expose it and say, here’s my game plan on how we’re going to roll out. So, point number one is do a market study, present it and get buy in from, you know, your funder your, your board of directors, yeah, right your investor. Point number two. Now you build your service. To Brian’s point, I’d like you to really embrace this idea, minimum viable product Brian gave Fantastic advice. If anything, just lay out a standard framework to start off with, you’re going to feel like that’s not good enough that you need to have a whole heck of a lot more, because they’re going to be judging you on your quality of your deliverables or whatever. But really, the thing that you’re judging on is just Are you moving the needle, and recognize that out of a, let’s say, you have a population of 10 managers, most of them are going to ignore it anyway, just like salespeople are gonna ignore it. So, you want to focus on your role. You roll something simple out to everybody. But to Brian’s point, you want to listen to the 20%. Those two, they’re like, hey, Scott, what you’re talking about that sounds great. Now you’re in a position where you’re working with your power users, just like business 101, you find your power customers, and you build other services on top of that. So, things so for example, one thing that you can do is you can have a sales rep form in all intents and purposes, you’re providing coaching to them, but you’re not providing coaching that’s competitive with the with the frontline sales manager, you’re saying frontline sales manager, you’re probably not going to have a lot of opportunities for your, for your individual salespeople to practice different kinds of scenarios. Is that right? Yes, that’s right, Scott. I can create an environment where people can opt in, we’ll pick a topic, let’s say it’s prospecting. And we’ll let the reps talk to each other about how they’re getting the best out of practice out of coaching. And then I will write up what the findings are, offer some tips and send it out to everybody. Make that an opt in thing, not something that’s that’s required. So now you’re in support of frontline sales managers. We’re just trying to give you an overall view of what all this stuff could look like.

Brian Lambert 28:56

Yeah, and what you’re saying there, Scott as you build the services, and it says hidden, and I want to call it out here, put it on the front burner here. You’re doing it with sales managers and their teams, not to them. And I think you and I are both wired that way to do it with them. But a lot of it is coming at sales managers is, you know, here’s your, here’s your kit, here’s your course, go do it. And that’s not going to land. So, if you’re going to build something, and I know you have though, you know, build or buy, right, you can bring somebody in. But how’s that going to land?

Scott Santucci 29:31

Yes. And you know, my advice on build or by is it’s always better to know to do something yourself first, before you shop at, you know, shop it out. Get enough detail so that you know what it is that you’re looking for. Because there’s a lot of people out there that have very strong opinions about what coaching is or isn’t Brian and I included. You should know the environment. The way one thing you should know for sure is how will I measure success success. And if you don’t have a way to measure success, you probably shouldn’t move forward to anybody in the coaching space, ask them about how they would measure success. If at the end of the day they’re measuring individual reps performance, I strongly recommend you either if you like their approach, refer that on to some sales managers. But you probably don’t want to be in the business of directly coaching individual reps because you are in competition with the business within a business this frontline sales management. Brian, what are your wrap us up here? What are what are some of your your thoughts?

Brian Lambert 30:47

Yeah. You know, we’ve talked about the clarity challenge. We talked about this idea of how would we provide coaching services, I think, you know, there’s some some other other variables to consider that that are critical in the build with that you’ll uncover. That’s why I like the minimum viable product, but also being in tune with the culture, being in tune with what HR is thinking around this idea of coaching, things like that, being more curious is critical. And when you look at it, make sure you’re not coaching in competition with sales managers, but creating an environment that helps them be successful in their relationships with their, with their, with their reps. From a measurement perspective, you know, I found over and over again, when it comes to sales coaching, if sales managers say This thing is awesome, then then that’s really the only measurement that sales VPS actually need today with regard to sales coaching, because it’s it’s been so fuzzy and so hard to get your head around. It’s really been a qualitative measure. On hey, the managers seem to like this thing. As long as it helps them, we’re good. And that’s kind of state of affairs here from that perspective, and it’s -well, how would you measure it then?

Scott Santucci 32:10

You’re killing me with a I gotta have metrics. I gotta have metrics I got

Brian Lambert 32:13

Well okay, so how would you measure it?

Scott Santucci 32:16

Well, it I would measure it. So, I’m not I’m not. I definitely think that’s an easy first when, let’s call it a net promoter score. Yeah, like a net promoter. Right? But we need to have discipline for it. Because if you’re not certain metrics on that, then we you know, it’s just we don’t be we we don’t want to be at the whim of anybody’s opinion. For me, if you’ve done a good good enough job on your setup part right, your discovery work, you’re going to know how it you know how much time sales managers are wasted or how much time is spent. So, if I can give you if, only 10 hours a week, our sales managers are able to invest coaching for frontline sales managers or for salespeople, and I can get it to 20 hours. Well, that’s great. Then what I want to do is I want to track by each sales manager, how much time that they’re that how much uplift time that they’ve got, and whether or not there is an uptick in performance. Because I want to do the correlation. A correlation isn’t me, and the direct reps, it’s my ability to amplify sales managers for their sales performance to nizi. it if you go and understand the data, it’s an easy metric to pull out. If you are intimidated by the data, it’s going to be difficult for it.

Brian Lambert 33:42

Yeah. If you have clarity, I agree that you can do that.

Scott Santucci 33:45

And that’s the thing. That’s why it’s really important that you start with clarity is once you have clarity, then you can measure things and when you measure things, you it becomes a positive flywheel. Another another thing is if you are offering opt ins or Services track the attendance of those opt in services, that’s a metric. Also track the performance of the people who are doing it and also capture their quotes. There are so many ways that you can measure the impact of these things if you’ve done your work on on the clarity part, if you don’t, if you’re sloppy there, it’s going to be really hard to measure and to Brian’s point, um, you know, you’ve you’re creating band aids for folks. And yeah, you know, the opinion, net promoter score will work. But, guys, it’s just not that difficult to do the variable, the variation of the job analysis, the time motion study and the prioritization gap. They’re not hard things to do, and they provide you the foundation to measure lots of valuable things to show your contribution. I think it’s very, very, very short sighted to skip those things because you will think you want to move fast, it’s actually going to prevent your opportunity for adding more value to your company moving forward.

Brian Lambert 35:08

Yep. Thanks, Scott. And I think that’s a great way to wrap it up. We’re at time. And that’s great words to take forward that this idea of measurement, and that framework you just outlined can be used for a lot of different things. So, as always, everybody, thanks so much for your time, send us a send us a note at engage at insidese.com. Also, subscribe to our podcast using any of your podcast players and tell a friend tell a colleague about us. We only grow through word of mouth. So, we appreciate you sharing this with others and building the community with us. And we look forward to your ideas and your thoughts as we continue inside sales enablement. Thanks so much, everybody. Awesome.

Nick Merinkers 35:49

Thanks for joining us. To Become an insider and amplify your journey. Make sure you’ve subscribed to our show. If you have an idea for what Scott and Brian can cover in a future podcast or have a story to share. Please email them at engage at insidese.com. You can also connect with them online by going to insidese.com following them on Twitter or sending them a LinkedIn request.